Leadership and Communication for Transformation, with Joe Hart, CEO, Dale Carnegie

Michael Krigsman:

Welcome to episode number 186 of CXOTalk. I’m Michael Krigsman and the topic of leadership and communication is one of the most foundational elements for any program of change, transformation, and business growth. And today we're talking with Joe Hart, who is the CEO of Dale Carnegie and we're going to be talking about these topics. Joe how are you and thank you for joining us.

Joe Hart:

Terrific Michael thank you and happy to be here.

Michael Krigsman:

Joe, we all know the name Dale Carnegie, but tell us about your organization and the history of it, you've been around for a long time and what do you do?

Joe Hart:

Sure well so Dale Carnegie was founded by Dale Carnegie, who is the author of How To Win Friends and Influence People so it has been a best-selling book for 80 years. So many people have read it and sworn by it. Probably not a day goes by when somebody to tell me that they've been influenced by Dale Carnegie's principles.

Dale Carnegie started to teach a program in 1912 that really caught fire and so I can take a look about the program and how its evolved over the years, but today we are 200 operations in 90 countries, delivering training in 30 languages. A lot of what we do is still based on the original work that Dale Carnegie had developed. It’s really enduring, proven it so forth and it’s not one of these kinds of flavors of the month. It’s something that really has been very significant whether it's around presentation skills, interpersonal skills, sales leadership, that type of thing.

Michael Krigsman:

So tell us about the program and tell us what makes it unique.

Joe Hart:

So Dale Carnegie and let's start with the proposition. Dale Carnegie believed that every single person has greatness, so really the challenge and the opportunities to help each person pull that out. A lot of times we are capable of so much more than we think we are. We've got skills and abilities that we don't even know about. So he developed a program that goes over the course of days or weeks depending on how its set up, that puts people through experiences, and has them stand up and talk in front of a group and so forth. That ultimately gets people outside of their comfort zone and helps them develop in a way that maybe they hadn’t anticipated.

For example, when I took the course for the first time in 1995, I mean there were people who would stand up from the room, in the beginning they could even say their name. And by the time they were done they were up there. They were professionally, they were terrific, they were you changed people. And because part of what happens as you develop confidence and skills and leadership of the ability to deal with stress and so forth.

So even today, so much of what we do is designed to help you know build on interpersonal relationships and help people percent communicate more effectively and to develop that confidence that really could be a game changer. And a lot of people say they have confidence, and sometimes it's really honing that and being able to apply that in a way that helps you know people you know, interact with each other more positively and be a better leader.

Michael Krigsman:

So you’re in 200 countries…

Joe Hart:

90 countries.

Michael Krigsman:

90 countries, I'm sorry and this program has been around for for so many decades, so clearly there are very durable and enduring aspects of it. Can you describe what about it, what is that appeal and what is this special sauce that you have that so many others do not?

Joe Hart:

Yes so that's a great question Michael, and so How To Win Friends and Influence People book consists of 30 principles, and the How To Stop Worrying and Start Living book consists of 30 principles. So basically our typical Dale Carnegie course will focus on those 60 principles. And sometimes people will say these are our common ideas but they're not commonly practiced. So things like do not criticize condemn and complain and to get honest and sincere appreciation and to arouse in the other person that needs your want to listen and so forth.

So really going back to what I was saying before it really is the idea that the way that we interact with someone that defines everything. That defines what we can accomplish. It defines the quality of the happiness or unhappiness in our lives or at work and so forth. And so what we really are focused on is getting people to see things from another person point of view and to really interact with people in a more positive way. And when people do that then they can accomplish things that they previously couldn't accomplish just by themselves.

Michael Krigsman:

You know when you talk about getting people to interact and understand the others point of view and obviously to have empathy. It's funny when we talk about companies and we talk about brands and customer experience, that's exactly what we're trying to do in terms of getting brands to see their customers that way. So it's just a core human quality.

Joe Hart:

Absolutely and it’s funny,  it's something that at one level seems obvious and the other level when we think about is how we work throughout the day, a lot of the times we’re focused on our priorities, things that are important to us and so forth. And even a company using the example that you just talked about where a company you know, might have an opinion about what its customers want. But really don't understand that the most successful companies are those that understand truly with their customers need and what their struggles are and so forth and they’re able to solve those problems.

And so it's the same kind of thinking whether it's around how you and I interact with each other in a work environment. Whether it's around how companies interact with their customers. Whether it's around how you know parents interact with their kids, and I can share with you some examples of how we see this in practice. But the people who are able to do this really are the ones who are able to rise to the top of the organization to be leaders in an organization and really to drive change.

Michael Krigsman:

So these characteristics that you're describing based on your organization's experience and I know that you that you've done research into this as well. These are the characteristics that the people who are rising inside companies typically possess.

Joe Hart:

That's right and so you reference the research Michael. So we conducted some research we started about a year ago and it was originally in the United States and Brazil, and we were so intrigued by what we learned. What we really were looking at were what are the kinds of things that really motivate people to be their very best. And one of the things that really demotivate people and caused people to just be you know, horrible in the workplace so to speak, just uninspired and how often do people see those kinds of things. So we were intrigued by what we found we then expanded that research to 13 countries and several thousand people, and really it kind of boil down to 4 different characteristics that really drive the greatest leaders. And I would be happy to share what some of those are if you would like me to.

Michael Krigsman:

Well yes absolutely because I think we all want to have the results that are possessing these characteristics gives us. So please do break it down and let us learn from from your experience in your research.

Joe Hart:

Okay well sounds good. So the first one and we characterized these as R.E.A.L, real, real leadership. And the R stands for reliable and what we're talking about here if you think about a leader who is first internally reliable and also externally reliable. So externally reliable is obvious right. So and this is foundational because it really drives trust and how I relate with other people. But if the person who is externally reliable is one who essentially does what he or she says that they’re going to do.

So over time you and I had an interaction and you know that when I say something I do it, I've got that character and so forth. That creates a trust and accountability that is inspirational to other people who are working with you. You know that you're in the trenches together so to speak.

Internally reliable is a little bit different. We all have as people this ability to kind of sense when people are being authentic or when they're not being. And whether you know they're appearing to their own sense of values or not. So we'll have some sense of values that we communicate throughout, we interact with people and so forth with what we say.

And so a person who’s internally reliable is one who is consistent to those values. It's not the person is trying to be something that there are not, and it's obvious to people when that happens. And so it’s fine because we talk about the R, the E, the A, and the L they’re all important and at the same time this concept of reliability or credibility, everything else is premised on it. If you don't have this, then everything else is a challenge.

Michael Krigsman:

Can you elaborate on this relationship between reliability and credibility because these two are so very foundational.

Joe Hart:

Absolutely and by the way the opportunity here I mean this is not something that is limited just to a CEO or VP, this is anyone; you and me how we interact with each other and so it is really demonstrating you know that consistency over time.

To elaborate a little further, part of what the research told us is that if we look at wanting to be effective in an organization; two things that we look at are you know, what is the level of job satisfaction in an organization.  What’s the level of second turnover in an organization. And very consistently we see that when someone who works with, if I report to someone who is not externally reliable or internally reliable, the likelihood that I am dissatisfied with my job is significant. Five to seven times higher the retention rates for the organization are dramatically lower than an organization if I’m reporting to you Michael, and I find you to be just a reliable credible person, you do the things you say you're going to do. I can trust you. I can sense that you are acting in a way that's consistent with your values. The chances are extremely high that I will be engaged in my organization, that I will be committed to the organization that I will not be looking for another position so forth. So those are a couple of ways that manifests itself in the workplace.

Michael Krigsman:

And then what about the dimension.

Joe Hart:

So it's interesting if you ask about trust because when we look at just to kind of go ahead for a second, the E is for empathetic. The A is for aspirational and the L is for learn. And I’m going to talk about those in a second. So the need great leaders have or demonstrate empathy or caring for their people. You know we know sometimes when people are interested in us. They listen to us, they asked questions about us and I’ll talk more about that and the other characteristics as well.

But if there's no trust, let's just pretend that you and I are working together and you don't trust me, but I demonstrate what appears to be empathy. Well how are you going to perceive that? You don't trust me. It might seem self-serving if I'm asking about you, or  I'm asking about your family, if I'm asking you about your opinion in the job. But you know that I'm not someone who is credible or trustworthy. I mean it doesn't matter how empathetic I really am or how much how well I'm able to cast a great vision for you, or how much I learn from our experiences interacting with with each other. Trust is a foundational piece.

So really that has to be the most important layer of all of this. Everything else builds on it, and frankly it's the easiest thing to do because it really just goes to integrity and really being consistent what we say and do and how we communicate.

Michael Krigsman:

So trust is about integrity and consistency?

Joe Hart:

Absolutely right. Yeah it's about consistency. It's about integrity. It's about - and this is the thing to right, trust is very difficult to gain and very easy to lose and in people's perception you know is their own perception, so my perception is my reality. So to some degree you know I can be you know trustworthy and externally reliable and so forth and if someone doesn't see that that maybe their paradigm. But in most cases where we have a relationship that progresses over time, think about when you meet someone new. Think about when someone new comes in the organization, say it’s a new CFO starts with the company right. So he comes in or she comes in and starts to interact with people in the department, they may be guarded at first and that's natural. We all when we first meet someone are trying to figure out you know who is this person.

And as that person interacts over time you know when he or she is clear about you know what's important to him or her, and it ultimately begins to follows through on those things that’s the foundation of a relationship. And then when you have that kind of level of trust what you have is the ability for people to work and interact together and to achieve amazing things, because really there's only so much that I can do on my own or by myself. We are all interdependent irrespective. Sometimes we get into this silo mentality. We focus on technology and give it to people out. And at the same time we're all interconnected, we're all dependent upon others to achieve great things.

Michael Krigsman:

I want to remind everybody we're talking with Joe Hart, who is the CEO of Dale Carnegie and as we're talking there's a tweet chat going on using the hashtag cxotalk. And if you tweet your questions we can get Joe to answer them, and Joe we do have a question from Twitter from Arsalan Khan, who asks people are good, but sometimes in organizations they turn bad and do a very negative things. And what are the dynamics that take place that drive that change and what can leaders, what should leaders do to avoid that?

Joe Hart:

So that issue is is really something that can happen. People can be influenced by those around and they can make decisions that maybe are inconsistent with their own views so to speak. And really the opportunity is you know I can't necessarily control what someone else does, so Michael if we start working together and you start behaving in a way that is inconsistent with your values, you know what we would encourage is to try to have some sort of a positive dialogue.

I mean not to be afraid necessarily to address this with someone, but to do it in a way that respects you as a person that doesn't put you on the defensive. So we talked about you know starting in a positive way, how can the person say yes, yes. Demonstrating appreciation so you know, I’m trying to think of an example of someone or someone may be did something that I disagreed with say it’s within the organization.

You know I could go and say you know Michael, you did this and this and this and this is this. And it’s a real problem is not acceptable, I mean think about how we feel when people kind of address in that way. And the other way to address that might be something you know, start with you know, hey Michael I’d like a conversation with you and would that be okay, and sure would be. And you know maybe by starting with with appreciation of you know, you've been here for a year and I’ve seen and focus and it’s got to be sincere. This is not just about it’s what I sincerely appreciate about the person maybe who is -  and then this can be hard right. This can be hard because you know somebody could be really negative or hurtful, but can we approach them in a positive way and try to have a dialogue and to demonstrate.

You know one of the things I really appreciate about you Michael is you know the work ethic that you’ve demonstrated here. I know that you’ve been in early, you’re working out late, you've got a lot on your plate and it's really you know tremendous. You know one thing I was going to ask, I know last week when we were in the meeting and you know when Sue brought up this idea you kind of had said it's just a dumb idea or whatnot.  You know I'm not sure if you're aware of how that made her feel.

So it's that kind of a way that is not afraid at all to address the issue. And it’s back the the E, it’s empathetic because every single person has a desire to be appreciated, a desire to be respected and we all know that when criticized you know how do we feel, we feel attacked. So that the question is really how do you go about addressing, and hoping that addresses is the question that was raised or how I perceived the question was really about you know how you deal with people who are negative, and that doesn't always work.

And at the same time in my experience having those kinds of positive interactions and following say some of these principles that are -  We have a book called The Golden Book. It consists of these principles. It’s downloadable from our website but it really outlines ways you know, how can you disagree with someone in an agreeable away. Someone says something that is completely contrary to what you believe, how do you engage that person a positive way and maybe have that person come to different way of thinking.

Michael Krigsman:

It's so interesting to me because really in a sense you're describing maintaining a level of bravery in terms of addressing the issue, but then ensuring that you address the issue in the most positive way and also respectful way that's possible.

Joe Hart:

That's exactly right. I mean it always starts with respect and we respect, you know we need to respect each person that we interact with and sometimes that’s hard. Sometimes you know people you know are maybe acting in a very poor way. And maybe there are some situations where it's beyond reproach and someone needs to go to HR or something like that. But it in in most situations where there's an interaction in the day-to-day kind of life of a company.

For example, I think a lot of it can just be addressed. And I get Michael, testimonials from people all the time about how you know they apply these principles and it really can make a huge difference in the relationships.

Michael Krigsman:

We have another question from Twitter from Wayne Anderson, who says how can you use the principles of real in order to repair leadership or repair broken trust.

Joe Hart:

So that is a great question Wayne, and I guess I’m going to look at that because this is a tweet. I can't ask about follow but you know, the way I'm looking at it is let's say the leader has lost trust. So how does an individual go to regaining trust? And part of what we would say, the principles are look if you've made a mistake you know, admit it quickly and emphatically. If I've done something that has been hurtful to somebody else I might just say you know Wayne, I was reflecting on our conversation the other day. I was reflecting on something I said, and I perceived that it might have been hurtful to you. And I just want to come out and apologize because that's not really who I am. That's not how I feel i think. I think I was upset or stressed or whatever the case may have been.

But not to, a lot of times we're afraid to just say I'm wrong, and yet if we admit something that's a great way just to start out by rebuilding a relationship, and to acknowledge that you know where we went wrong and how we went wrong and to ask someone to talk to work with us.

And that will be true in an individual relationship like, Michael you or I or Wayne were talking or in an organizational relationship, let’s say the company has made a bad decision. Well don't necessarily hide and say we did make a bad decision and just pretend it didn't happen. It might be good for the CEO or the leader of the business to all the employees and say you know I want to acknowledge something. I looked at the decision that we made, and this was in hindsight because here’s why we made the decision. And we thought it was the right decision and we see that it wasn't, and here's what we're going to do instead.

So that's a great way to kind of prepare. But again, its being authentic, it's got to be truthful, it's got to be sincere and it's got to go to a painting of a vision for you know how we're going to go from here.

Michael Krigsman:

It's so interesting the things you're describing because in some cases they seem common sense but so often forgotten, and what you were just describing if you make a mistake admit it, makes me think of how many times we’ve read in the newspapers where a person made some mistake.  I mean Martha Stewart when she was caught with her stock trading. It wasn't the act it was the cover-up.

Joe Hart:

That's exactly right you know and I  think people have a lot of empathy. All of us make mistakes, none of us are perfect. So you know if Martha Stewart would have come forward up front and to say look you know here's what I did. I feel awful about it. It was the wrong thing to do. I mean not to point at anyone you know, Lance Armstrong had the same kind of situation and then ultimately had to kind of come clean and say all right there was no other place else to go. You know had he perhaps come clean up, front that might have been a way that could put him in a position of a really restoring politician, same type of thing.

So but but not only that Michael, I can think about just our everyday relationships. The people that we work with, the people who we live with, the people who we see, we interact with. I mean the quality of our lives, the happiness that we have, the ability that we have to really achieve great things depend so much on these quality of relationships and it starts with me and it starts with you know how I choose to behave.

Michael Krigsman:

Now what about communication because we may have empathy and we may have respect, but if we're not communicating in the right way then people won't know that, they won't recognize it and it won't have the effect.

Joe Hart:

Yeah, so communication can be tricky right, because we may think that we're being clear and you probably have the situation as I have at work and say gosh, I don't know how I could be more clear.  Sometimes it starts with you know communication is a two-way street and may start by listening and asking questions. So you know, you and I, I may be trying to tell you something and you maybe not clear, I’m I’m saying, Michael so help me understand you know, what your view is on this. So we're talking about you know something at work and you know, what's your view Michael and let you start talking about it and I’ll start listening about it.

But it's got be a really generous listening. It’s got really be okay, so what you're saying is you know this ABC and D is that right? And then you know that creates an opening. Really once I’ve understood you it’s really for me to communicate you know what I'm seeing or believing it ties into that so that you can see it.

So communication is not just me saying words clearly. It really is to look at the person I’m speaking with and who’s speaking with me and to make sure that there really is you know respect and dialogue. It's not just thinking about, what am I going say next. It's not just about trying to pass your position. It is really so I’m going to keep my mouth shut. I want to hear what Michael thinks and tell me what your views are and so forth. And we believe that that's really you know one of the most important moments is that communication is effective generous listening.

Michael Krigsman:

It also sounds like the advice that you're giving applies equally as much again to companies and I think about PR, Public Relations the best PR does exactly what you've just been describing. It's not just a one-way communication but there's a two-way dialogue that goes on.

 Joe Hart:

Absolutely, it is listening it is trying to understand, it’s admitting. It is you know and it starts with,  it does start with the R’s. It starts with the just being reliable and that reliability is fundamental to trust. And trust it’s fundamental to all relationships whether it's a corporate relationship, a customer relationship, and an individual relationship.

Michael Krigsman:

Now what about the element of motivation because I know that's another very important aspect of leadership and another aspect of your program as well. How can a leader motivate people?

Joe Hart:

So let me go back because the issue of motivation is one of the most you know frustrating things too many leaders right. They say, gosh, how do I motivate people. I don't see people who are motivated and really what we know is that motivation can be you know internal, intrinsic or extrinsic right. 

So extrinsic is you know Michael you know this because if you don't do this you’re going to get fired. You Michael didn’t do this because I'm going to pay you to do it or whatever it is.  An intrinsic motivation is really getting to the heart. It's where a person does something because it's important to them for their own reasons. And so the only way that you get intrinsic motivation and this really goes to be the E in real, its empathy. It’s empathetic it’s demonstrating, caring and understanding.  And I want to qualify this to because sometimes the word empathy is viewed as soft. It's viewed as weak.

And some of the most effective leaders and a great example of this, you know are empathetic they listen, they want to understand, they believe that they don't have all the answers. They want to honor the people that they work with by hearing their perspective and their point of views. Empathy really is a critical part to your question about motivation. It’s hard to motivate. If you want to call it motivate I mean we might say you don't motivate, you really inspired. But it's hard to inspire or motivate someone if they perceived that you don't care about them. You know and again, we talk about empath, we mean sincerely you know caring or listening or trying to you know put myself in that person's shoes.

Michael Krigsman:

So it's there's no quality here of sort of faking it.

Joe Hart:

Absolutely not. I mean again that goes to the the R, and people can see that. You know sometimes people look at the Dale Carnegie principles and they'll say, oh this is manipulation and Dale Carnegie's very clear that never works. It may work on a short-term basis but it's not a long term way to build a successful relationship or to be or to achieve great things over time.

I mean so really it's got to be genuine, it's got to be sincere, it’s got to be honest, it's got to be consistent with who I am. But you know this issue of empathy I just want to give an example if I may. You know, one of the greatest leaders in our time it is man Alan Mulally. Alan Mulally was the CEO of Ford Motor Company came from Boeing and really had saved Boeing and probably no company was at the verge of bankruptcy closer than Ford Motor Company was when he took it over in 2006.

And he's a guy who when he went to Ford, had every right to come in and say look I know what I'm doing. Here's the plan, here’s what we're going to do, let's go. And the fact he had a plan and at the same time he was the kind of leader who would instead of going to the executive dining room for lunch would go down to the company cafeteria, grab a tray, would stand in line. You know would get his food with everyone else. Will go sit down at a table and say I'm Alan Mulally, the CEO I would love to hear about what you think about the company.

People would reach out to him. And you know someone sent him an email one time you know complaining about one of the issues relative to design of a vehicle. And Mulally picks up the phone and says come on up here. Look at these blueprints and Mulally says you're absolutely right. You learned something from this person.

So empathy is something really goes to looking at the other person's perspective, to respecting that person's perspective. And ultimately he made very tough decisions in that business. He had to let a lot of people go and so forth, so it's not necessarily a weak quality. It is a quality that says many people, other people have great ideas and their ideas can make my ideas better. And we can we can do more working together then we can buy trying to pasture or trying to put you know, to make myself look good so to speak. It's really about trying to honor the other person and to demonstrate that lesson.

Michael Krigsman:

Alan Mulally was also elected to the Google board of directors.

Joe Hart:

Yes he was, he’s a tremendous leader. He’ll do great for Google.

Michael Krigsman:

So how can one learn these skills, because I think for many of us we would recognize the value of what you're describing, but in the heat of the moment we get caught up with our own concerns and pressures and stresses, and we may not live up to these ideals. So how can one learn these things and then internalized them so that we are able to maintain them consistently as you said.

Joe Hart:

Yeah so I've got some experience with this because you know I actually kind of struggled with that same issue and I'll share with you. Twenty years ago you know I took a Dale Carnegie course and you know I was a young lawyer and probably had you know a degree of arrogance and so forth. And so I took a Dale Carnegie course and I had been familiar with the Dale Carnegie How To Win Friends and Influence book. But the first thing was that the course really put these principles right out in front of me.

So it was coming out of that course that I said I need to practice these because if I don't practice them then knowing them is really worthless if I'm not living them. It's funny because even going to Alan Mulally. Alan Mulally his father gave him the How To Win Friends and Influence People book when he was a teenager. He read it over and over and over and practiced it, and that's what I did too. And so it's in practicing and first of all you have to know what the objective is. So if the objective is to give honest and sincere appreciation it is to work on that, and this is something that we do in our courses in the Dale Carnegie courses. So I mean maybe this is just one kind of plug input for what we do all over the world every day is someone could take a Dale Carnegie course, and  that's part of what we do, is we help people transformational  apply these so that they could come out of the process a different person.

You know at the same time but again it's knowing what they are, it's being able to have these, to look at these, to understand them and start applying them and anyone can buy the book at Boarders or on Amazon, at Barnes & Noble or not Amazon and Tinbox.

Michael Krigsman:

Now what about transformation and change because many of the people who are listening are in industries related companies related to technology. But there's so much change that's going on and it's not just the technology, but it's the culture that's changing and so what are the principles that a leader can use to help drive successful change inside their organization.

Joe Hart:

Yeah so one of the strategies that a leader can apply and also what happens if I'm on the receiving end of change right. Because often it will be someone who is in an organization, someone new comes in or it can be changed in the marketplace.  You think about the IT industry, really it's all the markets these days seem so dynamic and fluid and there's this massive change.

You know so the first thing is you know being on the receiving end you know, how do I respond to change. Many people respond you know with fear and some of that's natural and I mean part of that is to assess what it means. And at the same time you know it would be maybe cliché to talk about embracing change, and part of Dale Carnegie we teach is how to handle stress and worry, how to look at things in tight compartments. Because sometimes what can happen is people will get a couple of data points and then extrapolated all the way to the end, and like what's going on.

So that that resistance, that fear is just internally it’s just driven, so the first thing is just how do I how to manage myself and how do I embrace you know what might be something really good for me or really good for the company. So it would be to have a positive attitude, an open attitude at least and really to look at how I’m responding to things.

As a leader you know so much of a change in recognizing the people that are often afraid of change. You know I think number one it's  not just to come out and just to change things . Number one is before you change to listen to people and talk about what kind of change if you know we were working, so Michael what kind of changes do you think we need here, and really to listen and to gather and understand. You know what different points of view are around change, and take those into consideration.

So that when we have a plan it's not just my plan it’s our plan, we're working together to have a plan and then you know the question is how do I communicate that? The last thing you want is someone to hear about this through the grapevine, we talk about you know where there's lack of communication. There’s a vacuum infact and the vacuum creates you know gossip and worry and so forth. So it’s to get out ahead of the change as much as possible and try to promote transparency, and in that’s an ever evolving process. I mean I know that even in my own experience, here you know I aspire for us to become and I've been here for about a year, just a highly transparent organization. You know internally with our our team, internally with our franchise owners throughout the world. You know it really is to work together.

The wrong way to go about change is to say, here's what we're doing and you know you just better get on board. The better way is to really involve people so that we work on the change together so that we communicate that change together, we've got metrics and data that are really indicating where we are in that journey. And to be open to questions that people have and really try be empathetic about them and not just to say to somebody look, to just suck it up or whatever the issue might be. We need to put ourselves in the other person's shoes we need to try to see things honestly from the other person's point of view. And in doing that we can ultimately then move an entire organization or department or whatever might be to change

Michael Krigsman:

I think in many organizations what you're describing is a kind of theory but in practice it doesn't happen that way. I wonder what recommendations you have for companies to help ensure that this actually takes place.

Joe Hart:

It's a tough question you're asking because ultimately it comes down to the individual decisions and you know it all so it comes down to how people you know view the world, and how people view their place in the company. And one of the things that Dale Carnegie talked about and he was very prolific about what was a concept to the service, people like servant leadership and so forth.

And so you know if the idea if I am viewing myself as having all the answers I mean you know, we can get to the R the E and the A  and L and make sure we do that. I think about even a Warren Buffett. You know Warren Buffett is someone who is one the most successful people in history. He's one of the first people who will say I don't have all the answers, 80% of my time is reading, listening, learning.

He's got a level of humility and service that has created unbelievable value and wealth in the world and in part of that is because of who he is. By the way, Warren Buffett is a huge proponent of Dale Carnegie. He’ll talk about how Dale Carnegie helped change his life. The only degree he has on his wall of his office is a Dale Carnegie degrees so to speak. So it has to start with the individual and the only individual I can impact is myself, I mean directly.  I can try to influence and that's really what our principles and strategies are all about is how to influence people in a positive way. But that’s it, it starts with me, if it is to be it is up to me .

Michael Krigsman:

Now you mentioned influence which is another one of those terms which has become so widely adopted now with social media because we talked about, we hear about influencers, and using social media to influence. And so how does what you're saying translate onto using tools like social media to drive influence, and we all want to know how can we be more influential.

Joe Hart:

So it's interesting because one might think the principles I’m talking about only work in interpersonal exchanges, and really the same principles applied to how I communicate whether it's in a post or a tweet or an email or whatnot. You know it one of the challenges we want to have influence and and sometimes of firing things off so quickly we're not necessarily thinking about the impact of of the words that we use or the things that we're going to say or to put ourselves in the position of the recipient of that message.

And so influence really still starts even in that context I mean there are exceptions of this. There are people who are audacious. There are people who are offensive. There are people who have people follow them just because they are unusual. And at the same time you know some of the greatest thought leaders if you think about thought leaders they are people with the respect and communicating that perspective in a way that is ultimately going to help or influence an audience.

Even you here with the show you are here to try to provide your audience with the value, and so fundamentally what you're trying to do is the idea that Dale Carnegie and that we espouse, you know which is put ourselves in your audiences shoes and saying how do we offer something. So the greatest opportunity to influence really is to start with the other person's point of view and it really to be sensitive or attentive to that.

Michael Krigsman:

Joe we have about five minutes left and so what advice do you have, I mean you have such a broad view, what advice do you have for people who want to be change agents and maybe they work inside a large organization or inside the government and they want to be a change agent but it just sometimes seems impossible.

Joe Hart:

So before I answer that question with only five minutes to go I know that your audience would probably be disappointed if we only talked about the R and the A and the L and let me make sure I address that and then we can come back if it's okay with you and address you know what happens when it's hopeless. What happens when I feel like I can’t make a change and that's that's the reality for a very significant number of people.

Again the real is about how do I become a great leader and how do I influence other people. So I am reliable, I am empathetic. The A is aspirational and really what we have found and the research told us is that the most successful leaders are those -  I mean the bottom line is critical. We talk about the bottom line we focus on top line and bottom line and so forth. And at the same time the greatest leaders often go beyond that. You know, Millennials in particular are looking for meaning. We all want meaning, we all want to feel like we're making a difference or making contribution.

And the aspirational quality of a leader, you know I think about Steve Jobs you know who could have said to this team, you know we're going to come out with this great phone. It's going to be really cool, we’re going to make a boatload of money. He never talked in those terms. He always talked in terms of you know we're going to change the world. We're going to revolutionize the way that people can listen to their music and connect with information, and connect with each other and so forth. We're going to put the ability to have two people in different continents you know together instantaneously through their phones. He would talk about a bigger picture.

So there's an opportunity for us to, to keep that in mind that when I talking to someone that  I can believe that they desire to be great themselves. They don't desire to be mediocre, so how do I try to call that as a leader.

I was at a company, one of our clients in Florida and they're a major manufacturer of signs throughout the the world, and a lot of this their signs are on the job and they're in the workplace and they don't – they do talk about making high-quality signs and so forth. But what they talk about every employee who is in a workplace where their signs are going home safe that night, it's about something bigger it's about really making sure that what they're doing is having an impact on the lives of their customers and so forth. They really demonstrate that they’re caring and they look at metrics that are tide of those types of things to.

So the R is reliable the E is empathetic, the A is aspirational, the L is learner, being an active learner always trying to get more information.

So then going back to your question and your question is okay what if I'm in you know what appears to be a hopeless situation, and there are there are, let's just be honest there are negative workplaces and you know I  can do the very best I  can and still be a negative workplace. And ultimately you know if the vision of the people I'm working with and my vision or not in alignment, if the character of the people I'm working with and my character if you know there's not respect that may be a time where someone says that this is an area I'm not gonna be.

Meanwhile though I have heard lots of examples, I know examples of where one or two people have made a very positive impact in their workplace simply by going to someone that they had a bad relationship with in a workplace. Two people who were always butting heads and for one person to start by saying, you know Michael, I've been thinking about our relationship to how we’ve been working together and you know I'm not happy about the way that I have acted towards you. And I’m going to apologize for some of – and to start there . So the first question is what can I do to create a better workplace, a better environment, better relationships with people around me and at the same time there are some situations where that's just not going to work and a person we need to look for something else.

Michael Krigsman:

But if possible take the initiative and try to make that connection.

Joe Hart:

Yes and it in to do it in a way that respects the person and again these are techniques or strategies of how we interact with each other. And like you said these take time, you got to learn them, you've got to practice the.  And at the same time I've seen awful situations that could have been explosive had been diffused because someone took the first steps. Someone knew how to communicate, how to ask the question, or just just to listen. Just to listen and let the person can of you know get it off their chest and then you know, maybe even to say sorry you know so but those are some thoughts.

Michael Krigsman:

Well thank you so much. We have been talking with Joe Hart, who is the CEO of Dale Carnegie and what a great show this has been teaching us about leadership. Joe thanks so much again for joining us today.

Joe Hart:

Thank you Michael it’s be great to see you and   appreciate being on the show.

Michael Krigsman:

Everybody we appreciate you tuning in and joining us each week and thanks so much. I hope you have a great weekend and we'll look forward to seeing you again next time bye bye.